Beekeepers take neonic manufacturers to court

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I guess they figure they can't get money out of the little mites so give this a shot.

Just how much money does honey producers make ? I suspect Bayer and Syngenta products won't be dropping in price if they have too start defending all approved products . Grain auger manufacturers at one time was paying 25% of there manufacturing costs to cover liability insurance as used to be when you stuck your hand in an auger or corn picker you were careless,now its somebody else's fault . Hopefully the Neo issue can be settled without the lawyers

I would think the profit must be pretty high since there is really nothing you need other than some boxes to keep them in . You don't have to feed them like other livestock because every one else is expected to feed them for free . No fence , water , barn . Not expected to keep them from trespassing on other peoples property . Not sure how many or how much money they can claim for damages , most bee yards make a junk yard look clean & tidy . Most bee keepers do it as a hobby so do they really expect to make a living from their hobby ? I guess maybe they are now part of the "me too" livestock industry that wants gov to bail & buy them out !

Seems a little strange that a beekeeper would join this lawsuit without knowing what his actual losses are beforehand?
I can see this dragging on for a long time and turning into some sort of PR stunt,if it isn't already.

My understanding is there are certain tests to certify a class action suit. To this end one of the big hurdles is to show are parties are affected (injured) equally. If this is to be a federal class action suit why then does there seem to be no injury to bees in BC? Secondly to certify this suit, might be precedent setting since a bee keeper may own the apiary but questionably not the bees. They are independent contractors working for their monarchy. In order to own the bees one would have to be able to identify those bees beyond all reasonable doubt and have their monarch sign onto a national (Federal Worker Program) FWP program.
Thirdly the courts would then be endorsing theft by the bee keeper as he has no contractual agreement with the bees but rather steals their honey without equal pay for equal work charter challenge. Unlike other livestock he cannot claim he fed them when they forage for themselves freely without and beyond all boundaries.
The bee keeper has no environmental safety course completed by his slave working employees and so will open themselves to all manner of criticism and suits from equal rights groups even including vegans who will declare bees have a face.
Should there be concern …yes, should science be the guide …yes, How can there be a suit for damages (to income) without scientific inconclusive proof of cause? Should public funds be used by promoters like the Seria Group to persecute food producers and licensed agricultural crop protection products? Seems like Seria Group like so many NGO’s fell on the wrong side of “country” one more time.

You bring up a good point ,since bees are scavengers of all fields has the bee keeper received permission from all farmers around his hives ? We all want and need too save the bees for the good of all but a lawsuit?Were Sunparlour Honey is there is large concentrations of greenhouse complexes if the lawsuit is successful how long will it be before somebody gets sued when they have a poor crop and blame it on a farmer or chemical company?

"since bees are scavengers of all fields has the bee keeper received permission from all farmers around his hives "
So...with your odd line of thought...how many farmers are willing to pay the bees/bee keepers for the "custom work" they do...pollination?
Works both ways!

Hmmmmm. Can of worms comes to mind, as well as, slippery slope and ME TOO!

Since the can of bee hives has been opened.....perhaps.... Scavenging for nectar could be deemed as custom feeding without compensation. Where is my compensation?

So you are saying that the only pollinators that exist are honey bees who are owned by some one ? I would have thought there were many "wild" pollinators and not just honey bees .

Yes bee keepers do get paid for custom work when some one pays them to bring in hives for pollination of a specific crop . The bee keepers also get the proceeds from the honey .
What happens if a hive swarms , do they stay where they are supposed to ?
Do leaf cutter bees produce honey ?
Don't forget that honey bees are a hybrid .

G&O farmers have tried to work with bee keepers but the bee keepers are not willing to help them selves and work with others . So much for "works both ways " !

The constitutes of a contract are an act for an act, (barter) an act for a promise and a promise for a promise (contractual covenant).

You refer to the bees work as "custom work" pollination. So if they were to withhold services could they harvest nectar for honey without tramping around and pollinating (read as trespassing) as they go?

Hence the bees contract an "act for an act" barter, is intact as they have been paid for in barter consideration with nectar for the intentional or unintentional service of pollination.

At no time have I besmirched the quality of work, nor the necessity of pollination service. I do question the legality of the bees thieving slave masters to be in a position to legally sue for financial third party loss without scientific proof of how this injurious loss is incurred.

I believe if you read the bee act that bees are actually crown property, so there is no permission required for bees to buzz where ever they wish to.

Sean McGivern

So what rights then do bee keepers have to claim them as livestock . Are they under SM or Farm Products ? Wild turkeys if they had white feathers would also fall under farm products because they are likely a hybrid turkey that got loose . Honey bees are not wild animals . They are under the care and control of their so called owners . Wonder what OSPCA has to say .

You have shown, in your comment, an incredible lack of understanding towards honeybees. and beekeeping. Beekeeping is the culturing and harnessing super organisms.

Nobody has shown any respect to the bee-keeping community - therefore, they have no choice but to follow the adage - "when you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk".

If non bee-keepers showed any concern for anyone but themselves, bee-keepers wouldn't feel like they've been backed into a corner - but that's the way bee-keepers now feel, and, really, who can blame them?

In addition, the court system follows its own systems and procedures - for example, nobody cares about what any farmer might think, but the courts do care about the evidentiary value of anything proffered during the course of this lawsuit.

Furthermore, this proposed lawsuit has some sort of precedent in that the debate about the use of napalm in Vietnam had a huge effect on its then manufacturer, Dow Chemical - it was the public indignation against Dow being the manufacturer of this "legitimate" product which caused tremendous harm to humans, that resulted in Dow's decision to stop manufacturing it, and not any lawsuit.

As it is now, the bee-keepers, like the opponents of napalm, are winning in the court of public opinion, and in this case, the supporters of the status quo are losing - why can't the seed industry and grain growers learn from the lessons of napalm?

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

I don't think there has been any measure of disrespect unwarranted to emotionally charged beekeepers. Any allegations or quantification of harm injury or financial ruin should be backed by scientific fact, an ingredient in short supply for this story.
As for napalm and Vietnam if memory serves me right, that was war.

Now if you are saying Neonics are the first evidence of chemical warfare being waged by terrorist bees Mr Thompson, Homeland security would be only too happy to hear your theory and how it must surely tie into supply management.

I can hardly wait for the next release of Harry Potter Thompson and the terrorist bees. We must stick to science and provable fact or risk all semblance of credibility.

Posting anonymous comments has nothing to do with either good science or good law - it has, however, everything to do with cowardice, disrespect, if not also contempt, for those who do sign their comments, and disrespect, if not also contempt, for the subject being discussed and the victims thereof.

My napalm reference was very-much appropriate because for bee-keepers, this is war, a war in which they believer they are being decimated by today's version of the "military-industrial complex" - the agricultural chemical industry.

All of the sneering contempt coming from those who oppose the legal action taken by the bee-keeping community simply demonstrates an appalling lack of understanding of how the legal system works which is that, in court, anything can happen.

The larger issue which farmers seem to be able to easily ignore, is that even if this class action suit by bee-keepers isn't successful, the "war" isn't going to be over unless and/or until, decision makers in the ag chemical industry wake up and realize that, as always, and as amply demonstrated in the experience Dow had with napalm, good science (whatever it means), and the legitimacy of ones product, isn't enough to win in the court of public opinion.

In the final analysis, the neonics issue is turning out to be almost a classic business/government relations case study about how the ag chemical industry might "win the legal battle", but will ultimately "lose the public relations war".

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

Nay Nay Mr Thompson, there is no coward here. You are welcome to your point of view and usually sign ownership of your point of view.

I seldom post and never sign so anyone wishing to adopt a fresh view may do so without having to have been branded as an ivey Thompson view.

I do however find great fictional value in your hypothesis of bees being a form of alien biological warfare. I nor the screen writers never would have got there on our own.

To bee or not to be

Nowhere in any of my postings did I mention, suggest, or even hint that bees were, or could ever be, "a form of alien biological warfare".

This is one of the few occasions when being anonymous helps the poster - in this case it keeps this particularly-inept idiot from being sued for slander, not to mention being taken to task by the "language police", in this case for:

(1) having a sentence (number 3) which makes no sense at all, for any number of reasons including the use of the past tense "having been branded" in reference to something which might happen in the future.
(2) Improper use of the words "nor" and "never" in the last sentence which should have read, (assuming that it should have ever been published at all) - "neither I nor _______ would have ever made that conclusion".

Therefore, it would be of considerable benefit to readers to see at least a grade 8 level of grammar used by people posting on this site, even by those people who seem to be too ashamed to sign a name.

Finally, given this poster's wretchedly-poor understanding of grammar, and his/her proclivity to making slanderous statements, we can all be thankful he/she seldom posts and never signs.

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

It could well be that the poster
1 ) did not finish grade 8 . Guess you missed the treat others as you want to be treated in sunday school . Then that would be assuming you got churched as child also which maybe did not happen either .
2 ) did it on purpose to get a rise out of the on line teacher .
At least the poster does not use all capitals and yell all the time or post with really bad grammer and sign thier posts which must really drive you nuts when they are your from your camp and maybe even were teached/learned by you .

Its the "net" there is no such thing as bad grammar,this isen't a world were the teacher underlines all your essay spelling mistakes and gives it back for correction and even then l doubt she/he would take as long as you do in your usual long-winded explanation.
It must really kill you to keep under that 160-character limit when texting but l'm guessing your not a texting person,maybe for that reason ?

I agree this is warfare. Ridiculing bee keepers like some of the above writers is indeed disgusting.
Anybody who uses the excuse that science, espacially corporate funded science will prove that bees are not dying from these chemicals is a fool. There is no objective corporate funded science.
In regards to anonymous writing I have to say that those who will not face up to what they are writing cannot be taking seriously.
There are too many piping up with destructive comments for the pure joy of sarcasm
It is indeed interesting how farmers become mouth pieces of corporations.
Michael Schmidt

ALL THESE TOXIC CHEMICALS NEED TO BE BAND ,THEY ARE KILLING PEOPLE ! OUR SON PAUL HAS DEVELOPED ALS ,HE IS ONLY 28 YEARS YOUNG !THE CHEMICAL COMPANIES KNOW THERE PRODUCTS KILL PEOPLE BUT IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY AND SHAREHOLDERS RETURNS .THE MODERN FARMER USES ALL THESE TOXIC CHEMICALS TO MAKE MORE PROFIT ,HIGHER YIELDS AT THE EXPENSE OF PEOPLE .WHEN FARMERS SAY THEY FEED CITIES THATS RIGHT ,WITH THERE POSION CALLED FOOD ! PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP ,GOVERNMENTS LICENCE THESE TOXIC CHEMICALS TO KILL PEOPLE ,THEY CALL IT POPULATION CONTROL THOUGH AGRICULTURE ! THE PUREST FORM OF FOOD YOU CAN BUY IS FROM YOUR OWN GARDEN ,AMISH FARMS AND ORGANIC FARMS IN ONTARIO ,PEOPLE HAVE TO WAKE UP ,WHERE DO YOU THINK ALL THIS SICKNESS IS COMING FROM ? YOUR MODERN FARMER ,WHO ONLY CARES ABOUT HOW MUCH PROFIT HE CAN MAKE ! BILL

Geeez, another anti-Government/Establishment/Big corporation freak,the line forms to the right!
When you say all this sickness, would that include mental health as well.

Next you will be wanting us all to take a horse and buggy to town! We are not all like the Amish,most present day farmers choose to live and work in the 21st century and that means taking advantage of present day technology,every other sector of society does it,why not farmers?

THAT SURE IS A TRUE STATEMENT ,YOU SURE ARE NOT AMISH !YOU HAVE NO MORALS ,IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY .THAT IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH MODERN DAY AG ,THEY HAVE LOST SIGHT OF WHY THEY GROW FOOD FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO BUY AND PROVIDE YOU WITH A DECENT LIVING ! MODERN FARMERS ARE GREEDY AND THINK THE CONSUMER DOSE'NT KNOW HOW YOU ARE POISIONING THEM !WRONG ,THERE IS A LARGE MOVEMENT STARTING AGAINST YOU AND THE CHEMICAL COMPANIES THAT SUPPLY YOUR KILLING AGENTS ! IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME TILL THE AMISH WAY OF GROWING PURE FOOD PUTS MODERN FARMERS OUT OF BUSINESS !HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU KILLED WITH YOUR TOXIC WASTE THAT YOU SELL ?? THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO PEOPLE AND THE ENVIROMENT IF YOU CARED ,O I FORGOT IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY !!! BILL DENBY . P.S. I FARMED 800 AC BEFORE I SOLD MY FARMS AND I CAN SAY THAT I NEVER KILLED ONE PERSON WITH THE FOOD I PROVIDED ! CAN YOU MAKE THAT STATEMENT AND PROVE IT ,O YA ,I AM AMISH AND FIRST NATIONS DECENT !!

I suspect the Amish and First Nations communities might demand proof before accepting your claims!

I will post this as someone that cares and thinks you should seek professional assistance in dealing with your grief and anger. Striking out and blaming it all on greedy farmers is not going to help you. Please accept this as constructive advice

YOU KNOW THAT IS THE ONLY WAY YOU AND MODERN AG CAN DEFEND THE KILLING OF HEALTHY PEOPLE WITH YOUR TOXIC FOOD !THAT IS A JOKE REMEMBER DDT THAT WAS USED TO SPRAY CROPS FOR YEARS TILL SOMEONE PROVED IT KILLS PEOPLE ! WHER IS ALL THE PROOF YOUR MODERN FARMERS FOOD IS SAFE TO EAT AND WILL NOT KILL OR CAUSE CANCER IN PEOPLE .WHY DO YOU THINK THEY PRINT ON THE LABLE LD RATE !THE FACT IS MODERN FARMERS ARE NOT MONITORED FOR SPRAY RATES BY ANYONE ,ALSO THEY CAN BRING IN CHEMICALS FROM THE U.S.A. THAT ARE NOT SOLD HERE AND APPLY THEM UNDER NO SUPERVISION !EXPLAIN THAT TO THE EATING PUBLIC PLEASETHAT CONSUME YOUR TOXIC WASTE ! OUR SON IS ON HIS WAY TO MEXICO FOR STEM CELL TREATMENT ON SEPT.18 COSTS 35,000.00 U.S. YOU MODERN DAY FARMERS USING YOUR KILLER CHEMICAL SHOULD BE PAYING FOR ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BECOME SICK EATING YOUR CHEMICAL GROWN TOXIC WASTE ,THAT YOU CALL FOOD ! YOU PEOPLE THAT DEFEND THIS PRACTICE SHOULD HAVE TO PROVE ,THAT THE FOOD YOU OFFER FOR SALE IS SAFE TO EAT ! COME ON ,LETS SEE YOU PUT THAT ON YOUR LABEL ! BILL DENBY

Please Bill, get some professional help.

THE PROBLEM WITH ALL YOU MODERN DAY FARMERS IS YOU DO NOT WANT THE PUBLIC TO KNOW YOU ARE MAKING THEM SICK WITH CHEMICALS AND SEED TREATMENT THAT SHOULD NOT EVEN BE USED IN FOOD PRODUCTION ! THIS IS HOW YOU ALL RE-ACT WHEN YOU GET EXPOSED TO THE PUBLIC !THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN DEFEND YOUR TOXIC FOOD IS TO TRY AND PAINT A PIC THAT THE PERSON THAT IS EXPOSING YOU IS SICK !I WHEN THOUGH ALL THIS WITH THE DAIRY FARMERS ,YOU ARE A JOKE !! THE TRUTH HURTS YOUR BOTTOM LINE AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT !YOUR GREED TO GET A HEAD OF SOMEONE ELES AT THE EXPENSE OF PUBLIC HEALTH !I DO NOT KNOW HOW ALL OF YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT KNOWING SOME FAMILIES CHILD MAY DIE BECAUSE OF THE TOXIC FOOD YOU PROVIDED THERE FAMILY !HOW DO YOU SLEEP MY FRIEND ? BILL DENBY

Are spray paint fumes toxic?

Here is some info on ALS causes from the Mayo Clinic for Bill

Farming is not on their list.....

ALS is inherited in 5 to 10 percent of cases. The other cases appear to occur randomly.

Researchers are studying several possible causes of ALS, including:

Gene mutation. Various genetic mutations can lead to inherited ALS, which appears nearly identical to the noninherited form.

Chemical imbalance. People with ALS generally have higher than normal levels of glutamate, a chemical messenger in the brain, around the nerve cells in their spinal fluid. Too much glutamate is known to be toxic to some nerve cells.

Disorganized immune response. Sometimes a person's immune system begins attacking some of his or her body's own normal cells, which may lead to the death of nerve cells.

YOU SHOULD SPREAD YOUR NON- FACTS SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR YOUR MODERN DAY FARMERS ,IF YOU HAD ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE ILLNESS YOU WOULD HAVE NOT PRINTED FALSE STATEMENTS ,O YA YOUR THE ONES GROWING TOXIC WASTE FOR HEALTHY PEOPLE TO EAT !THE FACT IS YOU SHOULD CONTACT STEM CELL OF AMERICA ,THEY WILL SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ! IT IS ALL MODERN DAY FARMERS ON BOTH SIDE OF THE BORDER THAT ARE KILLING PEOPLE WITH THERE CHEMICAL GROWEN AND TREATED FOOD ! YOU SHOULD GET YOUR FACTS CORRECT ,BUT IF YOU TOLD THE PUBLIC THE TRUTH ,NO ONE WOULD BUY YOUR POISION ! BILL

Yeah, what does the Mayo Clinic know about medicine?

There is no point in trying to educate Mayor Bill. After all he says he's Amish AND First Nations.

Mr. Denby is obviously experiencing some considerable stress in his life at the moment, and, all things considered, probably shouldn't have used this forum to discuss personal issues - however, most people realize that when someone isn't having a good time of things, it's gracious and considerate to leave well-enough alone.

That graciousness is obviously completely-lost on the idiot who proffered the above posting, and therefore, I feel I must, on behalf of everyone who tries to be gracious to those who, through no fault of their own, are experiencing the ravages brought by ill health, issue the following statement:

"Hey, you anonymous jerk - get off this site!"

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

Maybe a move to the US would be in order Bill,l'm sure they have way better food down there,l've been to some central American countries,you would love their food also.
All the best to your son,hope it works for him.

MAYBE YOU MODERN FARMERS SHOULD GET OUT OF CANADA TO SOME THIRD OR FORTH WORLD COUNTRY SO YOU CAN START TO POSION THEM ASWELL ,!YOU MODERN DAY FARMERS STILL DO NOT GET IT ? THE PEOPLES MOVEMENT HAS STARTED,WHY DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO GROW THERE OWN FOOD ON ROOF TOPS AND BACK YARDS AGAIN ! EVEN SOME GROUPS GROW COMMUNITY GARDENS TO GET AWAY FROM YOUR TOXIC WASTE ! IT IS COMING ,THE SAVE FOOD REVOLUTION ,DAM THAT MODERN FARMER WITH HIS TOXIC WASTE HE CALLS FOOD ,YOU CAN EAT IT ALL YOURSELF !! WE WILL SEE DOWN THE ROAD WHO SURVIVES THE PURE CHEMICAL FREE GROWER OF FOOD OR THE MODERN DAY FARMER WITH THERE TOXIC WASTE FOOD !! BILL DENBY ,PURE FOOD GROWER ! P. S. WE ARE ALREADY WAY A HEAD OF YOU AND YOU CAN NOT CATCH UP !!

You are neither Amish or First Nations. Stop all the lies already!

Always sad too hear about ones like your son . I dont think you should be blaming agriculture for ALS as society is living longer than ever in history.We all live in a toxic environment in Ontario with a lot of urban pollution of all sorts. My great grandma died at 37 and a cousin at 9 from cancer and that was way before GMO foods,farm chemicals,ect. Farmers understand your anger but please don't blame it all on modern farms . Nobody wants to go back 100 yrs.as then life was tough

I think the Beekeepers are just trying to ride the environmental wave of discontent while its cresting,especially after a such a reported harmful winter to Bee's.Why not let the new Government regulations and scientists do their job and maybe with a less severe coming winter the Bee numbers will improve.Certainly a year has seen an upswing in Monarch butterflies.
I suspect also that the beekeepers are trying to cash in with an increase of public support and an armageddon scenario from the media of a bee-less world.That support can be rather fickle at times,spraying lawns,nice golf courses and even those pesky mosquitoes seems to get a free ride with the public but a farmer trying to grow a healthy field of corn or soybeans gets painted with a different brush.

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