by SUSAN MANN
Ontario farm representatives are disappointed there weren’t any agricultural representatives appointed to the recently established Minimum Wage Advisory Panel looking into how the province should set future wage levels.
Chaired by Anil Verma, professor of human resource management at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Management, the six-member panel is made up of business, worker, labour and youth representatives from across Ontario. The panel will report back to the government this winter.
Ontario Labour Ministry spokesman William Lin says by email the Ontario government established the panel to provide recommendations on setting the minimum wage “to ensure fairness for workers and predictability for business.” He adds that the “agricultural community is an important voice in this discussion.”
Ken Forth, chair of the agricultural industry’s Labour Issues Coordinating Committee, says they’re concerned agricultural representatives aren’t on the panel “because agriculture is the largest employer in Ontario.” The committee is a farmer-driven coalition representing the interests of Ontario agricultural and horticultural employers.
The Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association lobbied to have a representative on the panel. Forth says they weren’t told why one wasn’t selected. “We thought it would be important to have an agricultural perspective to it (the panel) too.”
In a July 17 press release on its website, the labour ministry says the panel will hold consultations to examine “the province’s current minimum wage policy and give advice on how Ontario should determine the minimum wage in the future.” The ministry notes “ensuring a fair and predictable minimum wage system is part of the Ontario government’s plan to building a more prosperous economy while ensuring a fair society for all.”
Ontario’s general minimum wage of $10.25 per hour is one of the highest provincial minimum wages in Canada, the release says. It has risen 50 per cent from its 2003 level of $6.85 per hour.
Forth says the agricultural industry has a concern about minimum wage increases, particularly since horticultural farmers supplying the fresh market are price takers and not price setters. “We are told what we will receive,” he notes. In some cases, farmers were paid the same rates this year for products that they were paid 15 years ago.
In the fresh fruit and vegetable industry, the cost of production has nothing to do with the selling price, he says. Forth, who grows vegetables, says this spring he got $7 a box for a container holding 24 head of leaf lettuce, which is the same price he got 15 years ago. The lettuce was sold in stores for $1.99 per head.
If California and New Jersey have a lot a lettuce, then the price is low. “It’s all determined by supply and demand,” Forth notes. “That’s what is perplexing about this business. We have no idea going into the year how much we’re going to get for the product.”
Another concern about wage increases is farmers in competing growing areas, such Michigan, Ohio and New York State, have a minimum wage that’s $2 to $3 lower than Ontario’s, while growers in other countries supplying products to the provincial market, such as Peru, Chile, and Ecuador, pay their workers just $1 an hour or even $1 a day. Wales says farmers in the United States hiring workers who aren’t legally allowed to work in that country aren’t following their government’s minimum wage rules.
“Our competition probably don’t have a minimum wage,” Wales says.
Forth says they were told a while ago they’d be able to make a face-to-face presentation to the panel but now the consultations are all going to be done by email. “We wanted our word to be heard,” he says.
Ontario Federation of Agriculture president Wales says he found out Wednesday (Aug. 7) “the panel isn’t going to receive any face-to-face presentations.” But the Labour Issues Coordinating Committee will be lobbying to ensure agriculture can do a face-to-face presentation.
What Forth and Wales were told conflicts with what the ministry says. Lin says in his email the panel “will hold face to face meetings across different regions of Ontario this fall to solicit input from all interested parties.”
Lin says during a telephone interview there will definitely be in person consultations this fall across Ontario. No dates or locations have been set yet. “The plan has always been to solicit feedback from a whole host of stakeholders, though email, fax and mail and also face-to-face consultations.” BF
Comments
When it comes to Agriculture things get very complex because agriculture wants or has many exemptions that other businesses don't have . Also when will our reps wake up to the fact that when you have your minister of Ag who you fell all over your selves to say was the best thing for the industry that is now pulled three ways with being minister for 2 ministries and is also the premier . This just shows how unimportant our gov thinks agriculture is . It is a slap in the face for agriculture of this province . It is all smoke and mirrors to test the waters for the next election . Seeing the results of the latest by-elections has told them not to waste their time in rural ontario and fight for the urban seats which they may be able to or need to keep .
It appears that the problem is now that Buy Local is not enough for the Ontario growers . Many surveys have said that consumers want to buy local and would be willing to do so at a higher price . It now seems that there is a backlash from the local growers and their reps . Likely with good reason because many people will tell you to your face what they think you want to hear but then when in the store will make a purchase with their wallet . The Gov. sold these growers a bill of goods ( buy local buy fresh ) and the growers bought into it not thinking of the long term and the fact food is a cost to the consumer that they are always looking to buy at the cheapest price and the fact that imports come into this country at a lower cost with the same quality . I mean really now how many retail chain or grocery stores do you see that have LOCAL ONLY produce or products ? It just doesn't happen . These stores will put it in their biuldings to seem to support but they will always sell what moves in volumes based on price .
They could really care less where their product comes from as long as it sells and price sells . Buy local buy fresh has put prices up which makes it easier for competition to fill a market .
When it comes to wages it looks like they are only willing to pay minimum wage which you can get at Tim's or McDonalds which have controlled heat and airconditioning environments . Would these reps work for minimum wage ? It may well be that these farmers will have to go to a mechanical harvesting of their produce to better compete or pay higher wages . Then the fact of quality from mechanical bruising comes into play also . There needs to be more research into lowering your cost of production in other ways
To put the blame on minimum wage and other countries not having one really smacks of sour grapes . Are we in Ontario and Canada not better than that ? How many of you would live in a bunk house and work for minimum wage ? No mention of regulations that were supported and in some case asked for that affect costs . Some of these were supported in order to get some thing else in the short term that has now turned into larger problems and added costs .
Consumers have so many other costs pulling at their wallet these days . Hydro for one is set to go up 50 % , gas is always rising , heating costs keep rising , insurance keeps rising , housing etc . Gov spending , waste and lack of accountability keeps rising and is a drain on our wallets . The easiest place for consumers to save money is by cutting food costs . If you really expect some one to survive and raise a family on minimum wag then you better be prepared to do so your self .
Like I stated earlier . When agriculture is represented by some one who is in a three way pull for their attention you know which one will get the short straw , photo ops and lip service . Look back at what you have supported in the past that has taken money out of the consumers wallet that is affecting yours . Short term gain can turn ugly and be long term pain .
Agriculture is trying to stop the inevitable out-sourcing of what we do. Nothing describes the futility of what we are trying to do, better than to walk through downtown Kitchener/Waterloo, as I did on Sunday while attending the KW Blues Festival, walking past the former Kaufman factory, past the former Bauer factory, past the location of the former Labatt brewery, past the former Seagram distillery, and if one went further, past the former Budd automotive plant and the soon-to-be closed Schneider plant, and if I knew where it had been, the former Greb factory.
However, replacing all of these plants is the emergence of KW as the "Silicon Valley of Canada" what with high-tech startups, and allied businesses all associated with the University of Waterloo. While RIM has had a rocky ride of late, it represents, rather than primary agriculture and our fixation with wage rates which we're never going to have in our favour, the way of the future.
In addition, Google selected KW as its biggest Canadian development centre, and even at the Canada Day picnic in Palo Alto (in the heart of the Silicon Valley) I attended earlier this year, the city of Kitchener was a major sponsor, and sent representatives to speak and give out door prizes - would they have travelled that far, and spent that much money, to sponsor anything agricultural? Do pigs have wings? The City of Kitchener knows where the primary growth in our economy is coming from, and it's not with either agriculture, or traditional industries.
It's like this people - we're not getting attention, because we're a sunset industry and everybody knows it but us. We've priced ourselves out of production agriculture and are left with little else to sell but genetics and management services. The sooner we realize it, and ignore our futile protectionist fixations, the better off we'll all be.
Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON
When I take a stroll though the St. Jacobs Market, I feel wonderful that so many people make their regular stop there to buy their products from the producers that they know. This market has grown and is now a tourist attraction. Smart
business people combine quality local products in their restaurants and even show where the family farm where they are grown.
When I take a spin around our wonderful, agricultural country side, I see there is so much more available then before: vineyards, turkey products, peanut products, bee keepers, apple orchards, etc. who have built a business around their products.
Keep up the good work. I for one am glad to go for my sunday spin and pick up some fresh veggies and sweet corn on the way plus a favorite bottle of fruit wine to sip with my meal.
Thanks so much.
Just over a year ago, while waiting for a family member to get off work, I spent an hour in her local food supermarket just north of Dundas St, on Spadina Ave, in the heart of Toronto's Chinatown.
In all that time, I could find only a few products which could be identified as even being Canadian, let alone "local" Canadian, and it was fundamentally obvious that the great-many, mostly-Asian, shoppers in this store, simply didn't care.
I managed to find hydroponic tomatoes with a sticker identifying them as Canadian, the eggs and dairy products, thanks to supply management, were obviously Canadian, as was a canned meat product labelled as being produced by Maple Leaf - nothing else was identified, including the huge amount of seafood and produce I'd never seen before. For example, one obvious favourite was hens feet, sold loose in a bushel basket on the supermarket floor - they might have been from Canadian hens, but who knows, and who really cares? The customers obviously didn't care.
It's like this, people with the time and money to "stroll" through markets like the one in St. Jacobs, are on the out-going end of demographics - meaning that they're old and, therefore, represent the past. On the other hand, the Asian market represents the fastest growing demographic profile, not just in Toronto, but in a lot of other places in Canada, and if they don't care about local food, or even Canadian food, (and why should they?), then why are we focusing on something like the St. Jacobs market which is on the way out?
More to the point, who among today's younger consumers, of any ethnic background, has the time for a "sunday spin", let alone use the time to get fresh vegetables at a farmers market?
It's time for a reality check about both farmers markets and local food - neither appeals to a large segment of the population, particularly the segments of our population which are growing, rather than shrinking.
Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON
It's sad but true, when you stroll through farmers markets as i often do when the time allows, Stephen is right, there are very few minorities shopping at them this even includes the ones i've been to in such places as Toronto, where ethnic minorities are now the majority of the population. The shoppers at farmers markets tend to be mostly affluent white baby boomers, not younger families or immigrant families. I do like the idea that farmers are getting a higher price for their food by selling it direct but they are only selling a limited portion of it through farmers markets. A years ago i had an opportunity to hear a prof from Rudgers University talk at the Guelph Farm Smart conference and basically he said because of the the amount of labor that is required to set up, take down and transport small volumes of food to a farmers market the vast majority of farmers really weren't all that well paid for the efforts they were investing into farmers markets. I really like the idea of cooperatively own local food stores that allow a producer an outlet for their products 52 weeks of the year there several good examples of these types of stores in Ontario. There are a lot of ethnic cultures where the people would like to come right to eh farm and buy and slaughter their lamb or goat but here in Ontario the regulations don't allow for this, i am afraid that we could possibly regulate small scale agriculture right out of business. The one thing about farmers markets is that they do allow for cultural exchange, networks and social activities for consumers and new producers to have a venue to sell their products into as they learn more about farming and scaling up. Over the years i have seen a lot of people get into farming and get right back out in less then 5 years once they learned farming wasn't for them so i think these markets are a good venue for new farmers but all in all are not very practical for established farmers over the long term.
Sean McGivern
Connect the dots and you will soon come up with the answer . To explain it for those who don't get it all you have to do is read who is not happy in the article and connect the dots back to what group or crop that representative grows . I mean really now if you kiss butt all the time you at some time have to raise some sort of issue at some time to make it look good to those watching from the outside . It is not like Ag can not afford to pay decent wages better than minimum . A big problem is the skill set and lack of enthusiasm and caring of hired help , but yet expect a salary equal to a doctor or teacher . Many sectors will just automate like a dairy farmer going to robots for milking . A robot does not come with the baggage of an employee , does not need sick days , holidays and no deductions needed for wages paid like WSIB and EI . If you are only concerned about your labor cost then why would any one support you at the grocery store checkout .
As for farmers markets it is a tourist attraction at best , an experience , for those with nothing but time on their hands , a way to make some cash on the side and not pay tax on , and it is such a small portion of the actual grocery dollars spent that it does not really matter . That said it is touted by Gov and farm groups as great and the best thing since penicillin . Sad part is some where every one got lock jaw from not getting their protect them from Gov tetanus shot .
A little connect the dots goes a long way to understanding things .
Well if all those buses of people that drive to the market from the city came on a Sunday they would be disappointed,thank goodness they know(unlike you) its not open on a Sunday.
l have been going to the farmers market near St.Jacobs for over 40 years if its on the way out someone has forgot to tell them! They have been the building block in that area for decades and it certainly isen't all about fresh vegtables and meats although they are the mainstays,vendors selling everything from homemade soap to glutten-free brownies draw huge crowds.The parking lot always resembles a big malls the week before Christmas.People just seem to enjoy shopping in a outdoors surrounding,kinda like a festival atmosphere much the same as the Elmira maple Syrup festival which by the way also not a Sunday thing!l think its rediculous to say that this type of a market doesn't appeal to a large number of people,like saying farm fresh food has no appeal?? l noticed last time that the big Holiday Inn down the street a hundred metres was complete.Like l said the Market has been the building block and will be for decades to come.
The target market for farmers markets and local food is still aging baby-boomers who not only buy as empty-nesters, they're buying seniors portions as well. Therefore, what they buy, is piddly by volume, and by dollar amount, and when they move to nursing homes, the nursing home certainly isn't likely to buy home-made soap, or home-made anything, period.
And, go figure, the parking lot at my local Zehrs/Walmart in Goderich also resembles big malls the week before Christmas, every day of the year, including crappy days when shoppers avoid farmers markets like the plague.
Get with the program, my friend, if you have children, especially teenage children, you're going to be buying in bulk at Costco/Walmart/Zehrs, and avoiding farmers markets like the plague, firstly because you don't have the time, secondly because you couldn't care less about home-made anything, and thirdly because you don't see any sense in wasting time and gas driving to a farmers market to freeze or get rained on, and then have to go back to your local supermarket to get the rest of what you want, and can't get at a farmers market in the first place.
Fresh food and shopping in an outdoors surrounding is, particularly in a country like Canada, nonsense, and appeals only to a small minority who have the time, and disposition, to like festivals.
That's why, in almost every small town I know, farmers markets come and go, but mostly just go.
Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON
Wish we had a market like that close by , great place to go and has lots to choose from. Wonder why there is a few idiots think it such a bad thing , some people couldn,t please doesn,t matter what. I think it,s time they grow up and quit whining like 2 years old , for god sake you couldn,t ask for a better country to live in. But maybe they would be happier if they lived in a country that you don,t have any rights and you have to go through the garbage to eat and its every other day or 2. They have a word for them but I wouldn,t say it lets see if they can figure it out?
Yeah, right, you wish you had a market like that close by, so you could go there when it's sunny and warm, but ignore it when it suits your purpose.
In addition, the extra fuel squandered by people going out-of-their way to buy this, that, or whatever, at farmers markets never seems to enter the equation for farmers market proponents.
Furthermore, nobody knows exactly where the stuff came from at farmers markets, and/or who grew it, and/or how fresh it really is. For example, a few years ago, one of my tax clients had a roadside stand, yet grew nothing of what he was selling - and even with no overhead, he couldn't make money.
I remember a story in one of the Toronto papers a few years ago about the closure of a farmers market in Scarborough because consumers only went there on nice days, and the farmers who went there weren't making money, and would be further ahead to have sold their stuff into the wholesale market, rather than waste time, money, and effort, to go to a market, especially on days when nobody showed up to buy anything.
Farmers markets may not be a bad thing, but they're definitely not a good thing, because the economics simply aren't there.
Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON
I think you must have been really burned by a SM farmers to have so much hate or you figure that you should be the only one too make money? The farmers market is a great place to go and buy bulk at a big place and yes it can be bought at a cheaper price if you know the price and whats the different as driving to town or to the local farmers market. Oh but they are trying to make a living and its not allowed only if your a none farmer, yes get real you seem to have all the answers and you can get all the food here from other countries for a very low price. You should be in government so you can close all the places down and all we do is sit at home and have everything brought to you from the other countries and yes go there for your holidays and at free of charge no-less.
Really,you read that in a Toronto paper! l am shocked such a negative story would be in a big city paper, they always have such positive story-lines these days to add cheer and good will to a persons day.
You mean "extra fuel squandered" kind of like your fairy tale of people driving across border for dairy products,no one has to drive that far to find a farmers market in Southern Ont!
Hey, here is a thought why not sell wholesale and hit the farmers markets,because that is what most of them do! They don't have the number of fruit or vegtable processors they had at one time so what choices do they have??
"your fairy tale of people driving across border for dairy products"
So...the time lapse on your memory has expired? You can't remember the pictures of BC residents crossing the border and making an entire pallet of milk disappear in a couple of minutes...and the US residents anger at the Canadian desire for cheap milk? Convenient for you, but entirely inaccurate.
Listen to yourself,l got a neighbour down the road almost filling a 35-40,000 Litre trailer every second day and your talking about a pallet of milk ?? Your not only behind with your data... your not even in the game!!
Dairy in Perth.
No need to wonder why milk consumption in Canada is stagnate or declining...just listen to yourself.
Disrespect or lack of understanding of your customers is never a good thing in any business...or is SM not a business? I'm beginning to wonder if it's some sort of cult...by the comments I'm reading.
Think milk consumption is dropping not because of lack of understanding but for more reasons no one has really paid any attention to .
1 ) more immigrants moving here that drink other milk or milk substitutes like soy and goat milk .
2 ) Couples not having large families like our parents did .
3 ) More people who have allergies to cows milk .
And from some one who does not produce or drink milk for the flamers on here who want to lump every one in the SM supporter camp if you aren't bashing SM !
I agree with your partial list of why milk consumption is down, but you can add cost, health concerns, increasing alternatives, inconvenience (shelf life) and probably a few more. No matter how you look at it, population is up and consumption is down.
One dairy product that has an increasing consumption is yogurt...and what do you think the reason is that Chobani gave up on a plant in Kingston and went ahead with the US plants?
If you want to head down the road of SM hurting the fact of Chobani not setting up shop here , you are way to limited on your thinking and knowledge . If you look at the fact of market we are here in Canada , we are peanuts to the US market . Look at the difference in wages and you will soon see that unions here are hurting us . We also no have the biggest union ever in this country . Problems are only about to begin for Agriculture with regards to hired help . The Fiberals can try as much as they can to think increasing minimum wage is going to buy votes . The unions back the NDP . Our ag. voice has been backing the Fiberals for so long now that they do not know fact from fiction or truth from BS . We need to do ourselves a service and demand changes .
Yogurt only in the plain form is healthy . Any that has flavor added is full of sugar and is not healthy at all . Most do not know the difference and get caught up in the marketing schemes put out by the companies . Same goes for yogurt drinks that every one is flocking to and thinking they are being health concious .
"you are way to limited on your thinking and knowledge".
Wow you got that out of a couple of sentences...awesome.
However, back to the Chobani case. Chobani knew all of what you point out before they decided to set up shop in Kingston and it was the SM bureaucracy that sent them packing. Why don't you ask the Mayor of Kingston, surely he knows more about it than me...and maybe...just maybe, even you!
Why was this place picked for a plant was it because its beside the bridge to the States? Why wasn,t it up near the big farms in Ontario? Who really knows what the real reason behind the whole thing that went on. Oh some one will tell us for sure doesn,t matter if its right or wrong.
You may of hit the nail on the head of the location.The Kingston Mayor was just looking for job creations.Whatever the reasons it was not in the best interests of producers or existing processors.
Because since Parmalat closed down in Winchester, there's a serious shortage of processing in Eastern Ontario, to the point that they're "cascading" milk all the way from the Quebec border to Toronto.
I don't like some on here claim to know everything but there are things I do know much about . As for the mayor he may know what he was told but then again what he was told may not have been the whole truth or the whole story . That is any ones guess . I would say that there were more factors involved in the decision than are being told . Companies chase dollars . Investors also can and have pulled the plug on company investments in markets before .
Non SM supporter other than at the grocery store !
Of course your information wouldn't be a biased one sided source like the DFO.
The mayor or anyone else can see the obvious...no matter how much the message is manipulated.
Common sense , logic and experience !
That's funny! That's exactly what those that disagree with you would say. I guess you mean your logic, your common sense and your experience, which will be different than the next person's.
In other words, it doesn't make your view anything more than your opinion.
The comsumption of milk in the US has probably dorpped more in the last 10 years than in Canada.Yogurt (especially greek) share of the market has risen but is still relatively small,per/capita its still behind Cheese and cream and slightly ahead of ice-cream but seems to be getting major media attention
dairy in Perth.
Milk sales in the USA continue to increase year over year, i sure wish i knew where some people get their misinformation, to rather funny to read some of the BS comments pro supply management people have to say, with often little or no fact to support the rubbish they are saying.
http://future.aae.wisc.edu/data/annual_values/by_area/2356?tab=sales
Sean McGivern
PFO
Your data is outdated by 6 years at least so it is not relevant to today so you posted old rubbish and tried to BS your way through . Sorry sunshine .
here is more info from stats Canada
Sales of fluid milk increased slightly from 2010 to 2011 to reach almost 2.8 billion litres. With sales of 1.3 billion litres, 2% milk remains the most popular drinking milk in Canada, but chocolate milk shows the strongest growth, with sales increasing form 196 million litres in 2010 to 209 million litres in 2011. One also notes that sales of 2% and 1% milk are on the rise, while those of 3.25% and skim milk remain stable. From 2010 to 2011, cream sales increased significantly, from 281 to 303 million litres
On a stats Canada graph from 1970 to 2012, the milk consumption per person looks pretty much like a straight line. Ice Cream consumption appears to have decreased to 1/3 of what it was in 1970 and yogurt has gone from next to nothing in 1970 to over 4 litres per person in 2012.
It seems no matter how much proof one uses to support their case or opinion, when it comes to supply management, supply management supporters will always be deniers of the truth. I would love to hear some SM supporters explain to me why they should have this very special price support program that the rest of agriculture is with out ? what makes them so special and the rest of agriculture un-special ???
Please do enlighten us all ?
The Soap box is all yours
Sean McGivern
PFO
No one will deny the truth as long as your proof is current . 6 year old info is not current info . You sound too much like the gov. when designing ad hoc programs going back years and paying dead people . Not here to pound you into the ground like you are wanting to do to SM . Just pointing out your flaw in your argument .
As far as SM I think changes need to be made to the system but not sure that a total destruction of the system is the answer .
Also when you put PFO on the bottom of your posting , you are signing on behalf of the group you represent . You should not then have and use " I " in your postings unless you are the only member of the group . Signing on behalf of or as a representative of means that you are speaking for the group and as the group has voted and adopted policy on .
USA dairy exports 5.8 billion and Canada is the largest USbuyer of Ag products do the math we are losing out as America farmers are gaining
http://www.agweb.com/livestock/beef/article/u.s._ag_exports_forecast_to_...
Sean McGivern
PFO
Well high tariffs are not working now are they?
l believe it was offered to the Beef and Pork sectors at one time..they declined!
As I recall not all dairy or feather farmers wanted supply management either. The idea of a government allowing monopolies in my opinion just shows a form a of laziness, they don't want to actually be innovative and creative they would rather just let consumer over pay and limit markets, then to actually find really solutions.
The part that SM farmers don't get is that if this system was really set up as they make it out to be then there would be caps on the volume of quota one farmer could own. There is no reason that a really well run dairy should need to milk more then 25 or 30 cows and there is also no reason that ant egg farmer needs 100,000 hens to make a living. farmers milking hundreds of cows and raising several hundred thousand birds a year aren't making a living there making millions. I have no issue paying a little more for my food if I can see that I am helping create more social and economical improvements to society but why should I have to over pay for my food well we have dairy and father farmers who are reaping the rewards so much so that there now millionaires are my expenses ???
what people don't seem to get is that land values are so high because SM farmers are setting the prices, they aren't buying all of the land but they are setting the prices and the rest of agriculture either has to pony up and over pay or not get the land.
Canadian farm values are way over inflated and that is due largely in part to SM farmers have the money to over pay. Even with all of the money farmers receive from the US farm bill, they still aren't paying the high land cost we are for average crop land in the Midwest that can out yield out top farm land here in Southern Ontario. One only has to look at land values in Huron, Perth and Oxford, where supply management has its strong hold and wonder why is land that area worth more then in Chatham Kent or Essex, where they can out yield any where else in Ontario.
Supply Management will never gain public support by ongoing consolidation and the elimination of small farmers. The funny part of it all is that SM farmers have solely created their own horrible public image them self's.
Sean McGivern
PFO
What about the cash croppers that have 2,000 acres is it all right for them to have so much land? Its alright to stand back and throw stones at people but don,t have them thrown at them.If the FCC or BANKS allow farmers to pay big sums for land and only pay the interest on it , so I guess its alright to blame the farmers. Look out at the papers where the big companies spending billions to buy out their com. and its alright.
What choice are farmers left with, if they can't afford to enter into the lucrative SM sectors ? they then have to cash crop, I am 35 not from a farm family I own 85 acres and I rent the rest of the 2,000 acres I farm its the only way I could farm, since I am not the child of a long time farm family,
Sean McGivern
PFO
Its great you clarified about what you own and rent , and now its understanding the position your end on what your saying. Its hard for anyone to start out and buy land anywhere and make a living and pay the mortgage .
My parents were in the same boat 50 years ago. No farm family support and competing with farmers that gained huge acreage from the depression years. Some farmers survived the depression, lots did not.
But my parents made it mostly from the sweat off their backs. Bought the first farm when dad was 41.
He never complained because there are 10 commandments he believed and lived by. One was " thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods". That includes land and quota.
If you want land and quota, do the right thing and buy it like most farmers do and have done.
it's the sense of entitlement that many people have these days. If the way to make a stable income in agriculture is SM , then purchase quota. One former poster said he is 35 years old ....i hate to break his bubble but that is not a young farmer. Instead of always complaining he should take steps to crave out his farming future soon
g kimble
Were you even born yet when SM came to be to say "As I recall" ? You were still walking around with your dad at that time were you not ?
I would say you would have to be 50 at least to "remember" any thing about when SM came to be .
I have spoke with lots of older farmers and I can "recall" them saying they weren't in favor of SM and they still aren't today but they got steam rolled many of whom opted out of continuing to milk cows once it came into effect.
Sean McGivern
I still cant get one single SM supporter to explain to me if SM is set up for the public good, which I don't believe it is, but if that's it intention and if its designed to return a profit to the farmer, then why do we have huge chicken farms and farmers milking several hundred cows, when we no full well that a dairy farmer who is a top manager milking 25 -35 cows can make a good living and can have a great quality of life, I think we should cap milk quota at 40 units per farm, layers at 5000 per farm and broilers at 20,000 per farm, then every farmer could make an average wage of $50,000 per enterprise that is a good income, there isn't one person in the little village that borders my farm that makes that much per year, and besides farmers could then also add other things do their farm such as cash crops, or other types of livestock if they needed more then $50,000 a year to live on. Last week I had a farming neighbor mention to me that if you actually looked around our township and came up with a list of the most successful farmers what would they all have in common, I told him I wasn't sure, he said think about it , all of them have a wife with a good paying job in town. I willing to support a system that is inclusive, I am even willing to pay more for my food than I should have to if I know its going to farmers who are making a fair living, but I am not willing to over pay for food and support SM when I know its crating millionaires at the expenses of the rest of the farm community and is over charging for food so that they can become far wealthier then any other farmers and this thinking is shared by the rest of the farmers who are members of the PFO, its only common sense and this system is broken, I have spent 10 yrs now lobbying for change and meeting with marketing boards all of the people in involved say they system isn't perfect it needs change, but no one is willing to make any changes to open the system up and correct the problems, its all pandering no substance.
Sean McGivern
PFO
There is nothing broken within the Supply management system but there sure is outside it, that is what you should be spending your time trying to fix! That's the whole trouble with the other sectors, they have been on a rollercoaster ride of prices for so long they have forgotten what is up and what is down.
Read the New Holland mag. and it had a story about a dairy farmer in the states that milk 200 cows and had to go into making cheese because they couldn,t make enough money for the family. Strange EH. They said that all the dairy farmers in their area has gone out of milking , because the only one making the money was the ones making the end product and selling it not the farmers. So why in the hell would someone in Canada want to have that kind off thing here so the big companies made all the money while the farmers made little or none, its beyond me.
No one got steamrolled,you where either in or you were out !
l said "consumption" was down in the US, your talking about sales! The US exports milk around the world so it would seem by your figures that those exports are up.There is still the fact that comsumption is down in the US almost 30% since 1975.
dairy in Perth.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/business/121211/milk-consumption...
It's irrelevant who's drinking the milk the fact is that USA farmers are being paid to supply it, all well Canadian farmers are missing out on these sales and the income from them, because we are hog tied with an out dated system. A system that only rewards a small percentage of Canadian Farmers, I can tell you right now if we didn't have supply management here in Canada Land values would be a lot lower then they are, its SM farmers who are pushing up land values and the rest of agriculture has to compete with them, it's a totally unfair system and its designed to put farmer against farmer. What beef farmer wouldn't be annoyed with it, its totally ok for the dairy sector to dump their garbage cull cows and dairy veal into our beef market, yet there is no allowance for us beef farmers to dump our surplus milk into the dairy pool. It's a system of double standards that only serves those on the inside of it, not the great public or the rest of the farm community. Any one who thinks any different is clearly delusional and out of touch with reality.
Sean McGivern
PFO
That's the trouble with the US dairy system is they don't know when to ease up on the "supply".Their solution to low milk prices is the same as for high prices,milk more cows!
Before BSE hit l never heard anyone in the Beef sector whining about Supply management.l never heard any complaining from the Pork sector about the evils of Supply management in the pre-COOL days or when the Canadian dollar was 86 cents/US or corn was $3/bu.
The problem l have with some SM bashers is we knew that BSE was going to show up at some point in this Country and the US response was predictable.l had a large cash-cropper tell me he was renting as much land as he could 2-3 years before the flood of Ethanol plants just across the border,just because he "saw it coming".We see it coming and the fallout these two factors(+ Cool) have had on the livestock sectors and some people still feel compelled to blame Supply management for their low price probelms.
Your idea of lower land prices being a cure-all for Canadian Agriculture is totaly out of whack,its almost as funny as Beef farmers wanting to dump their surplus milk somewhere.
dairy in Perth.
Steve, at a true farmers market like the Saturday Kincardine Farmers Market the people do know where the food comes from, it is all within 50 KM of the market and 75% has to be produced by the vendor, the rest still has to be local, or have local content in the case of cheese at our market where the vendor sells the milk to the co operative that makes the cheese she buys back. While the scale may be smaller, the profit is real when you cut out most of the people involved between the farmer and the consumer. As for the gas to drive there, 1/2 the people in Kincardine have to drive by our market to get to the grocery stores anyhow and we do stimulate the economy by using gas and adding miles to cars so they have to be replaced sooner. Economists generally think this is a good thing.
John Gillespie
Ripley, vendor Kincardine Saturday Farmers Market
there are more and more true farmers markets setting up every season.the vendors are the growers as John Gillespie pointed out . This is true economics when there are no middle men. We have seen the planted acreage increase year after year as the "local minded people "support these farmers.
Farmers Market Ontario has a program that allows the true growers to set themselves apart from the resellers ......MyPick Program (~300 in Ontario)
FMO Verifier
As a farmer who was a vendor at a few different farmers markets over the years, I have to say that the vast majority of people selling at farmers markets are not really earning a living wage. I do like farmers markets but purely for the social aspect the time required to set up take down and then sit there for half a day usually doesn't equate to a living wage. I pay on average my farm workers $15-$16 per hour so I can not sit a farmers market unless I am getting that wage 4 fold per hour, very few farmers would not be generating a profit of $60.00 per hour from their farmers market stall, I am talking profit not sales. As I mentioned in an earlier post Farm Smart had Jack Rabbin from Rudgers University speak about the hard numbers one must target to justify there time at a farmers market and their research had shown very few farmers where actually breaking even by utilizing their time by sitting for half a day at a farmers market, I think there are much better models out there such cooperative food stores, CSA's and other very innovative model I heard of one farmer who sets up a booth at 4 o'clock in the lobby of a massive office tower and only sold for one hour as the employees funneled out of there offices on there way home, the farmer could spend his day picking the produce fresh, they could be in the city before rush hour and then head home again once rush hour had slowed down and this whole concept only had them away from their farm for about 3 hours rather then going to a market where you have to be up at the crack of dawn and then sitting at a farmer farmers market until noon or 2 in the afternoon and think about all of the days that it rains and people just don't come out and you have lots of product to sell with no buyers. We need to find more innovative ways to help farmers be successful and I am afraid that for a lot of farmers markets are not the best option, especially in rural areas with smaller populations and most farmers are to far from the city to make the trip worth it financially. But farmers who are close to large urban populations markets may very well be a successful model.
Sean McGivern
Food for thought
I do understand your thought or want for a market close by but a farmers market is in reality a very limited or small portion of the gross food dollar equation . I relate farmers markets more closely to what I see on television from under developed or poor countries where many people are selling food in the streets for pennies to make enough money to live and people go there every day to buy their food if they have enough money to buy any at all . Don't forget that many do not live in houses , pay for or need heat and hydro , running water and sewage and taxes . Also they are selling crafts and such much the same as flea markets here . Further the produce at a farmers market is many times the same produce that is sold in major grocery stores because these market people go to the wholesale distribution centre to get it because their own is not ready , out of season or they are playing the Buy Local Buy Fresh game to unsuspecting nieve gullable people . Sorry but I just don't see them as being a real economic driver for the province or country . It is good for some and some may make a living from selling their wares at them but it is still at best a limited niche market . Many persons are too busy in life to take the time , energy and effort to go to them . It reminds me of the time I was told by a family member that they took flowers back to the local gardening centre because they saw the same advertised for less 45 minutes away . I asked how much in gas was spent to go there and back . All I got was a dumb look and a stare .
I mean really now all it is and can be seen as is small potatoes , a feel good , look what gov has done for agriculture that your farm groups have asked for to make it look like a real win for our members smoke and mirrors blanket . Why would a major grocery chain want to deal with 50 10 acre market garden producers when they can make a call and get a truck load at their ware house with in hours of putting in the order . It is about volume in the real world . Low cost volume production . Many want to or like to connect back to the days of old and how grandma and granpa lived . Grandma stayed home and never hardly left the kitchen , the garden and raised the kids . A trip to town once a month was a big adventure . If you asked those people they do not want to go back to living that way today .
Don't get caught by smart , decieving , good marketing . Marketing it tied to profit and profit making not honesty . Don't think that marketing is not done by gov either !
No one is saying that farmers markets are an Economic driver in this Country,what portion they contribute to the food dollar equation would be hard to determine,although l'm sure there are studies somewhere being done on that topic.They are a supplement to the grocery stores but on the other hand the larger Markets like St.Jacobs have many many different food products that can't be found in any big grocery store and fresh not frozen!
l think the Amish communities around Ontario have relied on the Markets and roadside stands for decades,it is a huge part of their income and they have the wholesome appeal to the city buyers.
l don't agree its all about low cost volume in food, the farmers markets give variety that many people find appealing.l have never saw a crowd along the local grocery store meat aisle like l have at the St.Jacobs market meat aisle and its the same as the fruit and vegetable stands outside,sure the grocery stores are convenient and close but appealing ??
The article was about taking a look at the minimum wage level in Ontario.
Legislating a minimum wage is "protectionism" on a much grander scale than SM.
Why is there legislation to protect a minimum wage level at all? Where is the free market in employers being able to pay the going rate to employees?
If you want Chinese products, manufactured at Chinese wage rates, then Ontario should drop wage protections to compete on a equal footing with the Chinese. Giving Ontarians Chinese wage rates is better than giving the whole job to China.
Legislated wage rates is nothing but labor supply managed.
The argument could be easily, and correctly, made that increasing the minimum wage is necessary to counter the adverse effect of supply management on people making the minimum wage.
Therefore, as long as agriculture supports supply management's ability to harm those people making minimum wages, it is hypocritical for agriculture to oppose increases in that minimum wage.
What's most hypocritical is when supply managed farmers oppose increases in the minimum wage, or even oppose unions in primary agriculture.
Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON
Making Minimum never stopped anyone l knew from buying a case of beer every couple of weeks during the summer,for that matter l hear even people on welfare seem to show up at the beer store fairly regularly.Your now trying to tell us low income earners need a raise in wages solely for milk and chicken??maybe its to buy T-Bones instead of hamburger or go from Pork hocks to Rib roasts.Truth is there will always be low wage earners the same as there will always be high-school dropouts.
Hypocritical is saying Supply management opposes a raise in the minimum wage when you know darn well we don't have a say in it, or for that matter any other Agri-sector,l think that is the point of the whole article which l doubt you actually even read!
Picking on consumers seems to be the favourite pastime of supply management supporters.
What do farmers not understand about the double standard of not caring about consumers when it comes to the rip-off pricing generated by supply management, and then not caring about consumers all over again, when it comes to helping them earn the money to buy the dairy and poultry products we're deliberately, and completely-selfishly, pricing out of their reach?
When supply management crashes, dairy and poultry farmers are going to have to eat their "somebody has to be poor" attitude, because they're then going to be the poor people they now treat so dismissively - and nobody will feel the least bit sorry for them, nor should they.
Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON
If all of these Sm farmers are going to be so poor , why then are you fighhting to have SM killed so that more people can be poor and produce milk ,chicken , eggs . No one wants to work for nothing . You make no sense and we might as well import all of it since poverty is good as you see it . Welfare costs money to taxpayers also . You are not going by economics and it shows .
The so-called logic in your posting is based on a common fallacy, and that is the belief that you can't bring some people up by bringing others down. The economic truth is that taking away legislated advantage from a few always benefits many including, eventually, those who lose those advantages.
Or, to look at it another way, you're making the argument that we need supply management, otherwise everybody will be poor, which is exactly the same argument as that used by slave owners prior to the US Civil War which was that - "We need to keep slavery, otherwise everybody in Mississippi will be poor". Both arguments ignore the fact that those few who are rich because of legislated privelege, don't care a whit about those who they disadvantage.
The second fallacy in your logic is that we will automatically import everything if we eliminate the 200% tariff barriers protecting dairy and poultry farmers. The reality is that we will be putting dairy and poultry farmers on a level playing field with every other farmer, and, in that way, we really will all be in it together, as so we should - farmers, particulary those with an export focus, will benefit, and so, obviously, will consumers.
The third fallacy in your logic is that you ignore the fact that since tariff based systems are, by definition, net negative for jobs and economic activity, eliminating these tariffs will reduce, rather than increase, overall joblessness and poverty. There is no reason, for example, that Chobani, in the absence of supply management, couldn't have built a plant at Kingston to supply Greek yougurt to not just Ontario, but also a good portion of the north-eastern US.
Stephen Thompson, clinton ON
You can make all the claims you want and back track with your economic BS that you never prove but the fact that you made blatantly clear in your posting is that you would like to see all farmers poor and you want more young people to enter agriculture to live as poor folk . I think your main goal or objective is one of having a personal grudge against SM agriculture . That in your posting has come out clear as clear can be . You want all persons in agriculture to be second class or the lowest class of citizens .
You make it sound like farming and production of food is not important or essential for life . Do you believe as many urbanites do that food comes from the grocery store ? You have never lived through a war like my parents did where the enemy and others would come and steal your food . Some one who has no money is one thing . Some who is hungry is a completely different animal to deal with .
Sad to see your economic mind set has no common sense or sense of reality .
The undeniable fact of the matter is that supply management gouges consumers and pits farmers against one another - if that isn't common sense, and reality, then nothing is.
Stop fearmongering about food shortages, already - it's only common sense, and reality, that food security is enhanced by more trade, rather than by less.
What is truly sad, however, is:
(A) the extent to which supply managed farmers will go to use any means, fair or foul, to defend their ability to take unfair advantage of others
(B) the extent to which supply managed farmers truly believe, but think it's perfectly OK, that any farmer who isn't in supply management, is a second class of farmer.
Just for the record, I don't believe myself to be "second class or the lowest class of citizen" - that you obviously do, infuriates me, and stiffens my resolve that, for the good of agriculture, we can't get rid of supply management, and the self-serving, and dismissive, attitudes of people like yourself, soon enough.
Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON
All unions are cartels. They are the biggest gougers of consumer pockets.
Consumers spend 8% of their earnings on ALL food.
Consumers pay 42% of their earnings to taxes.
Its getting too expensive for manufacturing in Ontario with the high level of taxes. The good jobs have gone.
Your consistent rant about SM is peanuts to the bigger picture.
Get over it.
No voodoo or fearmongering here by me but I do see it coming from you . The fact that you do not understand how the price food is different than a food shortage is telling at best .
You seem to be spreading your own voodoo and fearmongering .
I am not an SM supporter or producer .
Your statement made perfect sense that you want SM farmers to be poor and be second class citizens , that any one in the future who produces those products should be poor and second class at best ,those who you seem to think you are fighting a fight for should be poor second class .
I would never consider myself to be second class . I will always consider my self better than you .
You opened your mouth and inserted your own foot .
I am sorry if you think that way I want to make sure that you know that most if not all farmers in this country are happy to have you as a costumer supply managed or not!!!!!! Thank u thank u cornel van t klooster dairy farmer
While you may be happy to have customers who pay almost 38% more to buy milk than what US consumers pay, not many of these customers are happy, nor should they be, to have you as their sole supplier.
In addition, not many of your neighbours are happy, nor should they be, to see you get the income and purchasing power derived from 200% tariffs available only to you.
It's precisely this disdain by supply managed farmers for both consumers, and their fellow farmers, which is why supply management is not well-liked, and will not be missed.
Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON
Appearently the majority of Toronto's poor feel they need a casino,so while your bemoaning the price of Dairy and chicken on the poor lower-income earners they are voting for meta-gambling establishment within TO limits, that according to a recent Ipsos Reid poll,where they state that 53% of lower-income Torontonians support a Casino.
Also appearently you have been reading a few too many Future Fiction novels when it comes to Supply management crashing!
There is no other way but up for min wage to go when you have Gov as the biggest employer and they keep driving the better paying jobs and industry out of the province with things like the GEA and hydro rates that are not competive that we all have to pay for . They think they can create jobs and offset the cost by having industrial rates but the truth is every user pays for some one else to get cheaper rates , gov fools itself into believing it is good for the economy and creates jobs . Sad part is we are being taxed by a tax not called a tax . The Hydro Debt retirement charge is never going to "retire" or get paid off because they keep adding more to it . All the while we are allowing wind turbine companies to make off like bandits with our money because of bad gov .
Sad Sad state of affairs .
I am sure there will be some dingbat say it is directly tied to SM agriculture .
"There is no other way but up for min wage to go"
Your statement is a complete fallacy!
When the average public servant gets paid more than the average non-public wage earner, the system is unsustainable.
Legislating a minimum wage is unadulterated protectionism.
Too bad agriculture does not have a voice in this situation.
Shows the contempt this government has for farmers, again.
Summarizing the key SM basher's points:
There is no future for Ontario agriculture.
The only sectors managing without government handouts are somehow guilty of wrongdoing.
Taxpayer bailouts and support, US style are acepttable.
Unlike all non farm corporations, farmers have to protect consumers.
Farmers, even really good ones, should earn less than non-farmers.
Anyone who sees merit in managing supply is bad.
Bankruptcy and all the damage it causes to victims is better than stability
Little else to sell but genetics? Really coming from an an economics SM basher? At one time dairy, primarily Canadian Hosltien genetics were in world wide demand. The pride of type and production genetics was over ridden by commercial production goals to achieve the cheap milk demanded by the basher economists. It was never farmers or good livestock breeders that stove to achieve the race to the bottom
Yes I can see it now, we will soon be exporting goat genetics to a terrorist tribe in some sub-existent desert tribe because an economist and maybe even an environmentalist said it would be a good thing to do.
Both are becoming about as welcome to a farmer as a bad case of mastitis.
So now you're saying Ontario agriculture is doomed.
Coincidentally you've been relentlessly attacking various sectors of Ontario agriculture for the way they try to manage in the face of foreign subsidies and various forms of unfair competition.
We were at a farmer market ( not to mention any place or name) and there was a big stack of pies that said homemade and we decided to buy a few and they have filling that was likely bought in 20 liter pails and we tossed them in the garbage. We learned after that that doesn,t matter where or what you buy its buyer beware, there is people out there that will try to sell anything and say anything to get you to buy it. In the end we still love markets but we make sure and look good at what they are selling and don,t believe what they say.
l presume you're talking about Cherries,my mother and grandmother bought pails of cherries for years to go into pies.l think it was because cherry trees are not that easy to grow and birds are a problem.The same can be said of many pies they made,peach,raisin,banana cream, doesn't mean they were not homemade!
l believe you are nitpicking,if you bought a homemade loaf of bread would you expect the baker to grow the wheat and mill it into flour for the loaf??
I,m talking about peeling the apples , using real plain blueberries or yes buying plain strawberries or cherries and or buying a pumpkin and making a pie out of them , THAT,S HOMEMADE. When you go and buy a crust and a pail of filling where you dump it in and throw it in the oven or buy it in the store and take it home and cook it , its not homemade. Do you buy a hand painted picture done in China and take the sticker off it and say you done it yourself is you consider your self the artist I would say not. Buy a raw loaf of bread dough and take it home and put it in the oven , do you say its homemade. So if you think its homemade then make sure you put how you done it or what you use inside and I for one would not buy from you. Look like its Fraud or cheating the consumer out of the product or produce for sale , don,t you think.
You are now talking about a boughten crust as well.Whether its actually homemade or not if your not happy with the product then don't buy from there again.Lets face it,its not like a big investment gone sour...its a pie!
That,s a great comment don,t buy there again , I,m saying its Fraud to sell something that is not what it says it is. Well if you have lots of money to throw away on junk , speak for yourself the poor consumers get screwed again and it all right don,t go back. Do you have a government job?
So do you think the answer is the gov't should regulate pies at Farmers Markets...oh wait...they already do!
l guess you could take it to the small Claims court? Here's a thought,take it back! Two of my daughter's worked at a grocery store, you would be shocked at what some people bring back..half eaten! You might not get a refund but least the makers of the pies would know your upset.
Just because you have 5.8 billion in dairy sales does not mean the farmer producing the milk was profitable . Also it does not mean that the 5.8 was direct dollars paid to farmers . It could well be gross dollars from the indusrty as a whole after processing . Was the profit if any from the US dairy farmer from dollars recieved from the US Farm Bill ? How many lost money ? You want to see more young farmers produce milk here , are you wanting them to be profitable or go broke competing with large corporate farms milking thousands of cows in the USA . Can they compete with the big players or will they struggle and eventually fold up shop and go broke . Can you enlighten us on your knowledge of the US farm bill please ? Export dollars do not mean there was a profit for the primary producer . Primary producers are price takers not price setters . 5.8 billion in US dairy exports could also include dollars paid as a subsidy from the US farm bill to primary dairy producers .
Just because you produce it does mean you will be profitable .
Gov has been for years here trying to wean us off subsidies and telling us we must get our dollars from the market place no more ad hoc dollars . Evidence is the RMP .
You are so right with your comments . All to many times people want to waste time complaining about things rather than taking things and making them work in their favor .
35 years of age is very much not considered young in many things . We do how ever in agriculture have groups that claim any one under the age of 40 is a young or beginning farmer . Many times you could say these people are starting a second career . I know many will say there are not many young persons farming but don't forget that many of us were told not to farm by our parents and watched our parents struggle to make ends meet . The average age of the farmer is some where around 56 . You can't help but notice that many farmers are living longer and farming actively at a much older age these days . Seems some where I have seen that SM has the highest number of young persons of any sector in agriculture . Now it may well be that it is a matter of opportunity for some one to get into SM at a younger age but that was the same for many other sectors not that many years ago . Although it is hard for many to remember or admit that after going through a rough financial time because of their own doing but many always look for an excuse or some one or somthing else to blame .
Does farming thousands of acres mean a farmer is greedy or is he just hogging land from other young persons wanting to farm ? I remeber being told by many that you must be a piss poor farmer if you need that much land to make a living .
35 or 65 whats the different they are still farmers and they are the ones working to pay the bills, Period. All I read before for years and some today that if you,re not buying land and expanding you,re going behind. When I started out we worked hard with no money in our pockets and could not afford new equipment or pay some company to fix them, and all our goal was is to survive and make an honest living and not be a big company with lots of workers. Now I,m nearing the end of farming and we live a stable life style and did it all without screwing my neighbors out of their land and like it very much if one sells their farm that a young couple will buy it and start farming it themselves. Some people have the nerve to slam dunk the little guy and praise the big guy for doing such a great job , bet they are the ones that would pay that couple cents less from the big guy than pay a reasonable price so the small and new farmer can survive.
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