Tim Hortons wants sow crates gone

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It will be a niche market for those who are willing to supply a Canadian company . Will Tim's be willing to source their pork from Canadian farmers who are willing to do what is needed to fill their want or will they go to the cheapest import ?
Think of it as pork SM !!

I understand that 3 P Conestoga plant supplies timmies.....they do have enough "stall free" sows in there group to supply them....the way its going by the 2022 time frame if we keep losing pork producers in Ontario at the same rate as the last 10 yrs. we will have maybe 100-150 producers left...just because they say they want stall free pork still doesn't mean its the humane way of raising pigs. k.g. kimball

I must disagree with Crystal Mackay. I AM a regular customer of Tim Hortons, and I care very much where my food comes from and how the animals are treated. I am also a vegetarian (for many different reasons). I think that what they are proposing is a good start. I would also really like to see the eggs come from cage-free hens.

Tim Horton's outlets went smoke-free before legislation in most jurisdictions required then to do so - and it made them appear to be a leader. They are making this proposal/request obviously because their market research told them it would be a business move for them, in the same way banning smoking also was a good business move for them. When it comes to this, and many other issues, farmers can either lead, follow, or get out of the way - the market is ALWAYS right even when/especially when, farmers think it's wrong.

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

"When it comes to this, and many other issues, farmers can either lead, follow, or get out of the way"
You are exactly right!
While farmers in the US and Ontario are wasting time fighting this, the rest of the world is moving ahead with "what the customer wants"
Smithfield's, the biggest hog producer in the world has said "our customer's have told us this is what they want and we are going to try to give it to them".
I guess Smithfield will be able to supply Tim Horton's.

Tim Hortons will only be a leader if they pay the increased cost of raising pork that comes with banning gestation stalls. They could very easily make a statement like this then continue to source their pork from countries that have not banned gestation stalls because it is cheaper and more cost effective then pork raised gestation stall free. There was a study done where they asked shoppers going into a store their postion on free range vs. battery cage hens. The majority supported free range hens however when the same shoppers came out they had bought conventional or battery cage eggs because the were cheaper. In the EU, which banned battery cages, they are importing more eggs from countries which have not implemanted the ban because they are cheaper then the ones raised free range. The "market" is not always right because the "market" is made up of conflicting views, perceptions and needs depending on where you are in it.
Adrian Straathof Westmeath ON

The market is always right, even if it doesn't make sense to farmers. All that conflicting views do is provide is a niche which may expand, contract, and/or disappear completely. In addition, the market doesn't care about anyone's cost-of-production, nor should it, because, except in the fairy-tale world of supply management, it simply doesn't matter, and all it's done there is priced those products to the point of absurdity.

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

How long will it be before the poorest group of consumers can not afford to eat pork or eat at Tim's because of TIM's own wants ?
And they aren't even talking SM for TIM's pork products . Hhhmmmmm

Hmm a vegetarian at Timmies must be tough as what products there do not contain meat proteins or eggs. Curtiss Littlejohn penned it best when he said " we are being ruled by the vocal minority". Having been loose housing for gestation sows until 1978 I can irrevocably say stalls for dry sows was the best and most humane thing that ever happened for a sow . Stephen Thompson had it right about humane society buying shares and there agenda which is really no "meat" .Heinz,fast food joints,ect. have been hoodwinked. k.g. kimball

I like that tims takes a stand against these things.

I want to know that the food comes from cruelty free practices

if tims truly cared that the pork they buy was from hogs raised with out crates or stall they could start buying pork that way today.
there is a processor in quebec who buy lots of hogs raised that way from many farms in ontario, mostly mennonite.
people when are you going to understand that tims doesn't really care since they are not prepared to make the switch today when the pork is readily available. this is purely a financial decision. the fact is they are not willing to pay the premium for this pork due to the many extra costs to raise pigs this way says volumes about how this is not an ethical decision for them but purely financial.
surely the economist who posts on here regularly can verify that it is a pure financial decision because if he has many mennonite clients some of them may raise hogs on this program.
we need to stop putting tims on this pedestal when they are only willing to make the change when it suits them financially. once again they can buy pork raised without stalls and crates today but choose not to.

One may not like what he/she sees to be the purchasing protocols used by Tim Hortons, but they are the customer, and, by defintion, they are always right.

We, in agriculture, have been brainwashed for so long by our own propaganda,especially supply management propaganda, that the farmer is always right, that we take foolishly take issue with our customers instead of meeting their needs.

It doesn't matter whether the customer's decision making processes are based on ethics, or on finances, or both, or even neither - how, and/or why, they make their purchase decisions is none of our business.

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

Mind games,the phoney preception that somehow the Pork at Tim Horton's will be better without sow crates , l didn't know they even made anything with pork in it !! We see it in all the fast food places and it will only progress to something else a few years down the road.
Meanwhile,children in some parts of Central America as young as 6 and 8 years old harvest coffee beans for next to poverty wages...think Tim Horton's cares, not a chance!

Your post sparked me to explore into Tim Hortons, Humane Welfare Policy. They have committed to buying 10,000 million cage free eggs a year and will expand that as supply grows, they also wanted crate free pork and wanted to continue to work with current supply chains as to not pull the rug out from under the farmers until they can change their systems over a period of time. Which is the right thing to do.
I would say they are putting their money where their mouth is they are even funding a position at U of G focused on Farm Animal Welfare and they also buy all 3rd party audited fair trade coffee> so it seems your comments are are uninformed and not in touch with what consumers are demanding. Raising pork in the industrial farm system hasn't really proven to be all that profitable, the farmers who are doing the extra things, organic, humane, free from, ect are the ones meeting the meet demand and making the additional money that might be the difference between a profit and a loss.

Sean McGivern

I have worked in barns with sow crates,l didn't like them but how many people that walk into a Tim Horton's,Sub shop or even order ham on their Pizza think for a second about sow crates ? It is a small number of people exerting their will on a Company that is all too willing to get some added media coverage and favorable press clippings.Really, who is going to oppose banning the crates except a few Pork producers and even they may be small in numbers.

l am just saying that the Animal welfare organizations that initiate these bans have far greater goals than just banning sow crates or layer cages and the fast food chains will be more than happy to oblige them if it means looking favorable in the media.

Except those hogs are already going to a select market so I guess Tim's can't buy them. Look around the world...stalls will be a thing of the past sooner rather than later and customers want what they want...supply it or look for other customers or chose to get into another business.

As a farmer, I see Organizations such as Food and Farm Care, simply as propaganda machines, trying to cover up the out dated and inhumane practices, that our industry must move away from. As a livestock farmer I believe both the farmer and the animals we raise are entitled to a good quality of life, and this has been instilled in me from Christian faith and values. I have raised hogs for more then 20 years and never used stalls or crates some years shipping as many as a 1000 market hogs, I know that pigs can be raised with out stalls and they can be raised safely my sows are never all scared up or beaten up they are use to living in groups and they always did very well.

Sean McGivern

It's understandable that Tim Horton's is developing a conscience where their products are concerned but Timmy is forgetting that their anchor product is coffee that is served in non-recycable cups.

Timmy appears to be selective in regards to principles.

Maybe if all the outfits that want to ban pork from stalls just closed there drive up windows we could save the environment,fuel,get some excercise and even think before we stop for that coffee and donut that we really don't need..guess I'll stop now ........k g kimball

Banning drive-through windows does make sense.

The government banned all hand-held units while a person drives. Why should a hand-held hot liquid unit be exempt?

The drive-through windows encourage people to stay in the car so they can "drink and drive". Holding a steaming HOT coffee while driving is a dangerous distraction. Driver safety takes a back seat to profits.

If Timmies won't take driver safety into account when selling hot coffee at drive though windows, then the government should ban those windows. The phrase "drinking and driving" should not be limited to alcohol use.

This is Canada - banning drive-thru coffee sales would even be harder, and a whole-lot less necessary, than trying to get rid of supply management. In addition, there are already far-too many morbidly obese people inside coffee shops already - why force even more inside than there already are?

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

Can go in and see and talk to them . I am sure you would love to tell every obese person they are fat and you are correct , proper and as an economist it is your duty to tell them so and save them from themselves .

A tax on fat people would serve the same purpose - and, unfortunately, a lot of farmers are morbidly obese, so we're part of the problem.

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

i have been reading this forum for the last few months and I tend to think Mr Thompson feels that he controls the postings. I do not see the value in the personal attacks on farmers...( their shape, their way of farming or what sector they work in ).....i'm so glad spring has arrived in my area and that i'm too busy to waste time reading his hurtful commnets.......i'm sure if i happen to drop in for a peak in june or july he will still be commenting

The truth hurts, some people can't handle it, especially, it seems, farmers, and especially those farmers who hide behind anonymity. And, go figure, for every "shoot the messenger" comment posted on this site, I regularly get about ten private postings and/or phone calls telling me that not only am I right, but that, if anything, I don't go far enough in my criticisms of complacency, double-standards, and lack of critical thought, in primary agriculture. I have every right to point out the double-standards of the farming community, whether it be our tendency to morbid obesity (take a look around at any gathering of farmers) our shameless defense of the double-standards of supply management, and/or our woeful lack of understanding of any basic macro-economic principles, as well as our enthusiasm for criticizing the business practices of everyone except ourselves. As for personal attacks, Eugene Whelan, the idol of the farm community, knew of no other way to respond to critics of his policies, than to launch scathing personal attacks against them - that's another double standard of the farm community, selectively idolizing (and demonizing) people on the basis of what/who, and why, they are "attacking".

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

Was that what you called the tax that your friend and former MP Steckle wanted to bring forth ?

Former MP, Paul Steckle, opined on a number of occasions, that we needed a food tax - unfortunately, he did not realize that regressive consumption taxes, especially on food, were net negative economic and social policy, and were of only short-term benefit to farmers.

Stephen Thompson, Clinton ON

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